Can anyone who owns a Cessna 172 tell me approximately what it costs
per hour to operate--fuel, oil, normal maintenance, engine overhaul
fund?

Thanks.

vince norris

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> Can anyone who owns a Cessna 172 tell me approximately what it costs
> per hour to operate--fuel, oil, normal maintenance, engine overhaul
> fund?
>
> Thanks.
>
> vince norris

Slightly more money than you have... ;-)

Not possible without knowing how many hours per year you will fly

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article >,
vincent p. norris > wrote:

> Can anyone who owns a Cessna 172 tell me approximately what it costs
> per hour to operate--fuel, oil, normal maintenance, engine overhaul
> fund?
>
> Thanks.
>
> vince norris

On 16-Sep-2004, vincent p. norris > wrote:

> Can anyone who owns a Cessna 172 tell me approximately what it costs
> per hour to operate--fuel, oil, normal maintenance, engine overhaul
> fund?


It depends primarily on number of hours flown per year, but given that value
it's not too tough to calculate.

DIRECT OPERATING COST:
Figure 8 gal fuel/hr @ $3.00/gal = $24/hr
Figure $16000 for engine overhaul, 2000 hr TBO = $8/hr
Figure usage related maintenance = maybe $2/hr (assuming you do your own oil
changes)
TOTAL DIRECT OPERATNG COSTS = $34/hr

FIXED COSTS:
Tiedown/hangar, could be anywhere from free to $500/mo. Lets say tiedown at
$100/mo = $1200/yr
Insurance will depend upon pilot experience and hull value. Let's say
$800/yr
Annual inspection and other maintenance: When we had a 172 I think it
averaged around $1600/yr. (including avionics).
TOTAL FIXED COSTS = $3600/yr

If the plane is flown a typical 150 hrs/yr, fixed costs as estimated above
come in at $24/hr, so total operating cost per hour would be $34 + $24 =
$58. But if you only fly 50 hrs/yr the hourly cost is a whopping $96.

Note that this analysis does not include depreciation (or appreciation) or
costs for periodic painting and interior upgrades, or interest charges on a
loan, if applicable. YMMV.


--
-Elliott Drucker

wrote:
> vincent p. norris wrote:

>>Can anyone who owns a Cessna 172 tell me approximately what it costs
>>per hour to operate--fuel, oil, normal maintenance, engine overhaul
>>fund?

> DIRECT OPERATING COST:
> Figure 8 gal fuel/hr @ $3.00/gal = $24/hr

Our '65 0-300D burns 9 and runs on Mogas, where available.

> Figure $16000 for engine overhaul, 2000 hr TBO = $8/hr

Because of the above, ours is 1800 hr TBO...

> Figure usage related maintenance = maybe $2/hr (assuming you do your own oil
> changes)
> TOTAL DIRECT OPERATNG COSTS = $34/hr

It seeps more than it burns...

> FIXED COSTS:
> Tiedown/hangar, could be anywhere from free to $500/mo. Lets say tiedown at
> $100/mo = $1200/yr

We pay $100 a month for a shared 3 plane hanger. T-hangers in the area
(when available) are $65-$75 a month.

> Insurance will depend upon pilot experience and hull value. Let's say
> $800/yr

Under $700

> Annual inspection and other maintenance: When we had a 172 I think it
> averaged around $1600/yr. (including avionics).

Going in for the 2 year transponder thingie Monday. Previous transponder
failed and was replaced (exchange) with a higher output model for under
$700. Owner assisted annuals currently run $200.

vincent p. norris > wrote in message >...
> Can anyone who owns a Cessna 172 tell me approximately what it costs
> per hour to operate--fuel, oil, normal maintenance, engine overhaul
> fund?
>
> Thanks.
>
> vince norris

I'm a member of a 5-man partnership in a 1979 172N based at BED, near
Boston.

Currently we charge $120/member/month to cover insurance, tiedown, and
some maintenance costs, and $60/hour (tach) for variables. Pilots are
a mix from 200-hour VFR to 900-hour IFR.

Currently we are discussing raising these by about 20% due to reserve
fund depletion after two rough (4-5k) annuals, but they're in the
ballpark. Be aware that BED is among the most expensive airports to
operate out of with $150/month tiedowns and $4.30 gas.

You can spend anywhere from $15-$25k when the engine goes, though a
good 0-320 will run well beyond TBO with good upkeep and cylinder
repairs.

What you have to be prepared for, as in all things aviation, is the
unexpected. In general a Skyhawk in good shape when you buy it and
taken good care of will not bite you. But when things break, and they
will, the numbers can add up very quickly. I would want an "oh, #$@!"
budget of at least $2500 in addition to planned costs, in case a
cylinder goes or the annual exceeds expectations. Radios and
autopilots are great but also create liabilities and if you get a real
christmas tree panel you might want to up that number, if keeping all
the toys working all the time is a requirement.

Best,
-cwk.

We have a 5-way partnership in a IFR '64 172 based at CNH. We split
$300/mo for fixed cost.

Breakdown:
$120/mo hanger (cheap hanger rent here)
$125/mo for insurance (4th and 5th
partner really increases the premiums)
$700/yr for annual

We charge $35 for operating costs. (Gas at CNH is $2.51 right now.)
Gives us about $20 for gas, $10 for engine reserve on a new 180HP O360,
and $5 for maintenance. This always brings us up short, as annuals
usually are between $2000 and $3000.

vincent p. norris wrote:
> Can anyone who owns a Cessna 172 tell me approximately what it costs
> per hour to operate--fuel, oil, normal maintenance, engine overhaul
> fund?
>
> Thanks.
>
> vince norris


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

> Not possible without knowing how many hours per year you will fly

It's perfectly possible. The only one of the variables he listed that
changes with the total number of hours flown will be normal maintenence.

You can figure about 8 gph. You'll need to find out what gas costs
where you fly the most. Most 172's run great on mogas and this can save
a lot. You will need 87 octane minimum and no alcohol in the gas. Oil
will depend on the engine. The Lycs burn less than the Continentals as
a general rule. I use Phillips XC 20W-50 and it costs $23 per case and
I use 9 quarts in my 182. I think the typical 172 will use 7 quarts.
So you're looking at $13.41 per oil change plus a filter if you need
one. I don't use an oil filter but last I saw they were about $12 each.
A typical O-320 overhaul will run about $13-15K with a 2000 hour TBO.
So figure $7.50 per hour for your engine overhaul. Add another 25
cents per hour for your prop. Annual maintenence will vary widely
because shop rates vary widely. I can spend $42 per hour up to $70 per
hour around here. A 172 is pretty cheap to operate. For a single owner
with a fresh PPL and a $50,000 hull value will run you about $600-700
per year for insurance. Tiedown and hangar rates vary even more than
shop rates.

Thanks to all who went to the trouble of writing thoughtful replies. I
tried to be brief, so I didn't explain that I'm not planning to buy a
Skyhawk ( perhaps I should have).

I'll be touring the Canadian Maritimes with a friend in his Skyhawk,
and I want to pay half of the operating (not fixed) costs. He said he
had no idea what his hourly cost is, but you guys gave me a pretty
good range of estimates.

vince norris

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:30:53 -0400, vincent p. norris >
wrote:

>Thanks to all who went to the trouble of writing thoughtful replies. I
>tried to be brief, so I didn't explain that I'm not planning to buy a
>Skyhawk ( perhaps I should have).
>
>I'll be touring the Canadian Maritimes with a friend in his Skyhawk,
>and I want to pay half of the operating (not fixed) costs. He said he
>had no idea what his hourly cost is, but you guys gave me a pretty
>good range of estimates.
>
>vince norris

I am really surprised that an aircraft owner/pilot does not how much
his operating costs are. That is just about fundamental for an
owner/pilot.

jay somerset wrote:
>
> I am really surprised that an aircraft owner/pilot does not how much
> his operating costs are.

Why? I don't know what mine are. I don't want to know.

If I were in business with the plane, it would be a different matter.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

>I am really surprised that an aircraft owner/pilot does not how much
>his operating costs are. That is just about fundamental for an
>owner/pilot.

Well, before I posted that request, I had asked several Cessna owners
I know, and not one of them could tell me what it cost.

We knew what our Warrior cost because there were four of us and we had
to know what to charge ourselves.

vince norris

jay somerset wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:30:53 -0400, vincent p. norris >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Thanks to all who went to the trouble of writing thoughtful replies. I
>>tried to be brief, so I didn't explain that I'm not planning to buy a
>>Skyhawk ( perhaps I should have).
>>
>>I'll be touring the Canadian Maritimes with a friend in his Skyhawk,
>>and I want to pay half of the operating (not fixed) costs. He said he
>>had no idea what his hourly cost is, but you guys gave me a pretty
>>good range of estimates.
>>
>>vince norris
>
>
> I am really surprised that an aircraft owner/pilot does not how much
> his operating costs are. That is just about fundamental for an
> owner/pilot.

To what degree of accuracy? I know the total dollars I will spend per
year to within a thousand or two. But I have no idea what it costs per
hour. That's not even an important number.

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> ...
> I'll be touring the Canadian Maritimes with a friend in his Skyhawk,
> and I want to pay half of the operating (not fixed) costs.
> ...
> vince norris

Why shouldn't you pay for half the total costs? If your friend hadn't
invested in the aircraft then you would have to rent one. The rental will
include half the total costs plus some markup for the owner. How is it fair
that you should only pay for fuel direct cost?

--
Jim Carter
"Jim Carter" > wrote in message
. com...
> "vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ...
> > I'll be touring the Canadian Maritimes with a friend in his Skyhawk,
> > and I want to pay half of the operating (not fixed) costs.
> > ...
> > vince norris
>
> Why shouldn't you pay for half the total costs? If your friend hadn't
> invested in the aircraft then you would have to rent one. The rental will
> include half the total costs plus some markup for the owner. How is it
fair
> that you should only pay for fuel direct cost?
>
That last sentence should read "How is it fair that you should only pay for
direct (variable) costs?"

Jim Carter > wrote:
> "vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ...
> > I'll be touring the Canadian Maritimes with a friend in his Skyhawk,
> > and I want to pay half of the operating (not fixed) costs.
> > ...
> > vince norris

> Why shouldn't you pay for half the total costs? If your friend hadn't
> invested in the aircraft then you would have to rent one. The rental will
> include half the total costs plus some markup for the owner. How is it fair
> that you should only pay for fuel direct cost?

If the friend is a US pilot, there are the restrictions of 14 CFR 61.113
about reimbursement.

If you want to concider it a rental, then all the requirements like 100hr
inspections apply.

In any case, if I were to share an auto trip with someone, I wouldn't
expect them to pay a share of my annual insurance or prorated cost of
new tires.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

> wrote in message
...
> Jim Carter > wrote:
> ...
> If the friend is a US pilot, there are the restrictions of 14 CFR 61.113
> about reimbursement.
>

The restrictions prohibit the pilot (friend) from making a profit, they do
not restrict the owner from recovering a pro-rata percentage of the
operating cost of the aircraft. I believe the total costs would be
considered operating costs because if the owner didn't invest in the
aircraft to start with how could it be operated at all?

> If you want to concider it a rental, then all the requirements like 100hr
> inspections apply.
>

Right. That's part of my point when I mentioned renting costing more than
just direct costs, however I suppose a 100 hour would be an additional
direct cost with which the private owner wouldn't have to deal.

> In any case, if I were to share an auto trip with someone, I wouldn't
> expect them to pay a share of my annual insurance or prorated cost of
> new tires.
>
> --
> Jim Pennino
>

Why not Jim? How is it fair that the owner pay for items from which the
passenger benefits? I have to admit that I don't charge passengers to ride
with me in the car as long as I have to go anyway, but that's my choice. The
fair thing is to split all costs evenly and that should be assumed by any
passenger in any vehicle. If the owner/operator wants to be more gratious
then that's their choice, not the passengers.

Mr. Norris was the passenger on this trip, and it was he who had written
that he wouldn't pay anything except direct costs. I think that is the
morally wrong position for him to take.

>Why shouldn't you pay for half the total costs?

Well, for one reason, people who rode with me in my airplane, over the
past 30 years, on trips to Alaska and other places, shared operating
costs, not hangar rent, insurance, or opportunity cost on my
ivestment. (I also didn't ask them to pay half the cost of my
aviation medical exam! Or half the cost of getting my licence, 50-some
years ago! How about that!!! Am I generous, or what???)

For another reason, that's what the FAA appoves, if I read the FARs
correctly.

> If your friend hadn't invested in the aircraft then you would have to rent one.

And if I hadn't agreed to fly with him, he would have had to pay the
full operating cost of the trip, instead of only half of it.

> How is it fair that you should only pay for fuel direct cost?

You should read posts carefully before replying. I explicitly said
that I would pay half of full operating costs, not "fuel only."

vince norris

Jim Carter > wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > Jim Carter > wrote:
> > ...
> > If the friend is a US pilot, there are the restrictions of 14 CFR 61.113
> > about reimbursement.
> >

> The restrictions prohibit the pilot (friend) from making a profit, they do
> not restrict the owner from recovering a pro-rata percentage of the
> operating cost of the aircraft. I believe the total costs would be
> considered operating costs because if the owner didn't invest in the
> aircraft to start with how could it be operated at all?

And you would be wrong.

From 14 CFR 61.113 (c)

....provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expeditures, or
rental fees.

As a US private pilot, you can't "share" the cost of such things as engine
overhauls, home based tie down fees, insurance, normal maintenance, etc.


> > If you want to concider it a rental, then all the requirements like 100hr
> > inspections apply.
> >

> Right. That's part of my point when I mentioned renting costing more than
> just direct costs, however I suppose a 100 hour would be an additional
> direct cost with which the private owner wouldn't have to deal.

As a US operation, you can't charge for anything other than a prorated
share of the expenses noted above and be operating under 14 CFR 61.


> > In any case, if I were to share an auto trip with someone, I wouldn't
> > expect them to pay a share of my annual insurance or prorated cost of
> > new tires.
> >
> > --
> > Jim Pennino
> >

> Why not Jim? How is it fair that the owner pay for items from which the
> passenger benefits? I have to admit that I don't charge passengers to ride
> with me in the car as long as I have to go anyway, but that's my choice. The
> fair thing is to split all costs evenly and that should be assumed by any
> passenger in any vehicle. If the owner/operator wants to be more gratious
> then that's their choice, not the passengers.

> Mr. Norris was the passenger on this trip, and it was he who had written
> that he wouldn't pay anything except direct costs. I think that is the
> morally wrong position for him to take.

The bottom line is under US regs you can't legally do this under 14 CFR 61.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

>That last sentence should read "How is it fair that you should only pay for
>direct (variable) costs?"

Too late. I already responded to your original message.

> I believe the total costs would be considered operating costs because if the owner didn't invest in the
>aircraft to start with how could it be operated at all?

You can believe that if you want to, Jim, but if you wrote that on an
exam in Economics 101, you would get an F.

vince norris

Jim Carter
> wrote in message
...
> ...
> And you would be wrong.
>
> From 14 CFR 61.113 (c)
>
> ...provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expeditures, or
> rental fees.
>
> As a US private pilot, you can't "share" the cost of such things as engine
> overhauls, home based tie down fees, insurance, normal maintenance, etc.
>
> ...
> --
> Jim Pennino
>

And "airport expenditures" would be? I interpret that to mean any
expenditure I make to maintain the aircraft at the airport in an airworthy
condition. Admittedly, "airport expenditures" is rather abstract and might
go either way, but until it is more properly defined mighten it also cover
maintenance, hanger or tie down, and any other expense at the airport for
the aircraft? The CFR doesn't specifically say landing fee, or parking fee,
but it could have.

Please understand, I'm not advocating any fees or charges here. What I am
saying is that it should be up to the owner to decide what the hourly rate
is that the passenger would be splitting, not the passenger. That was the
whole point of my post and I believe I even said so in a previous note.

Jim Carter > wrote:
> Jim Carter
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > ...
> > And you would be wrong.
> >
> > From 14 CFR 61.113 (c)
> >
> > ...provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expeditures, or
> > rental fees.
> >
> > As a US private pilot, you can't "share" the cost of such things as engine
> > overhauls, home based tie down fees, insurance, normal maintenance, etc.
> >
> > ...
> > --
> > Jim Pennino
> >

> And "airport expenditures" would be? I interpret that to mean any
> expenditure I make to maintain the aircraft at the airport in an airworthy
> condition. Admittedly, "airport expenditures" is rather abstract and might
> go either way, but until it is more properly defined mighten it also cover
> maintenance, hanger or tie down, and any other expense at the airport for
> the aircraft? The CFR doesn't specifically say landing fee, or parking fee,
> but it could have.

> Please understand, I'm not advocating any fees or charges here. What I am
> saying is that it should be up to the owner to decide what the hourly rate
> is that the passenger would be splitting, not the passenger. That was the
> whole point of my post and I believe I even said so in a previous note.

AOPA has numerous articles on the subject at
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/part91-part135.html

From one of them:

Passengers on a flight with a pilot who was already planning to take the
trip for his own purposes can contribute equally with the pilot to the
direct operating costs of the flight. This includes the gas and oil used,
the landing fee, and the rental cost if the pilot does not own the aircraft.
Passengers may not contribute to the pilot's indirect expenses incurred
because of the flight, such as the airplane's annual inspection, oil changes,
or hangar rental. "These are rules that are broken daily by pilots and
passengers who do not realize that they are in violation," said Kathy Minner,
an AOPA aviation technical specialist. "Some pilots go their whole lives not
knowing, or call us after someone ? perhaps an FAA official ? raises the
question to them."

Sounds like they are describing you.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

Jim Carter wrote:
>
> And "airport expenditures" would be?

The ramp fees and landing fees associated with that flight.

> I interpret that to mean any
> expenditure I make to maintain the aircraft at the airport in an airworthy
> condition.

And you would lose your certificate at the first hearing if violated.

> Admittedly, "airport expenditures" is rather abstract and might
> go either way, but until it is more properly defined mighten it also cover
> maintenance, hanger or tie down, and any other expense at the airport for
> the aircraft? The CFR doesn't specifically say landing fee, or parking fee,
> but it could have.

The CFR says "operating expenses of a flight". That is not abstract and cannot "go
either way", especially in an FAA hearing.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

>> Mr. Norris was the passenger on this trip, and it was he who had written
>> that he wouldn't pay anything except direct costs.

That's your (mis)interpretation. The fact is, my friend asked me to
fly with him instead of taking my own airplane because his intended
fellow-pilot can't go. I was the one who said I would go but with the
understanding I would pay half the full operating costs. On a previous
long cross country when I flew my own airplane, he asked his passenger
to pay only half of the gas. I wouldhn't have felt right paying only
that much.
>
>The bottom line is under US regs you can't legally do this under 14 CFR 61.

vince norris

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >> Mr. Norris was the passenger on this trip, and it was he who had
written
> >> that he wouldn't pay anything except direct costs.
>
> That's your (mis)interpretation. The fact is, my friend asked me to
> fly with him instead of taking my own airplane because his intended
> fellow-pilot can't go. I was the one who said I would go but with the
> understanding I would pay half the full operating costs. On a previous
> long cross country when I flew my own airplane, he asked his passenger
> to pay only half of the gas. I wouldhn't have felt right paying only
> that much.
> >
> >The bottom line is under US regs you can't legally do this under 14 CFR
61.
>
> vince norris

Well, sir, if it's appreciating like a Skylane you will only need to buy in
on the avgas.

To the below operating costs-.........double or triple those figures if you
licence and fly your plane in Canada!


> wrote in message
news:H0u2d.8226$MS1.2892@trnddc02...
>
> On 16-Sep-2004, vincent p. norris > wrote:
>
> >> It depends primarily on number of hours flown per year, but given that
value
> it's not too tough to calculate.
>
> DIRECT OPERATING COST:
> Figure 8 gal fuel/hr @ $3.00/gal = $24/hr
> Figure $16000 for engine overhaul, 2000 hr TBO = $8/hr
> Figure usage related maintenance = maybe $2/hr (assuming you do your own
oil
> changes)
> TOTAL DIRECT OPERATNG COSTS = $34/hr
>
> FIXED COSTS:
> Tiedown/hangar, could be anywhere from free to $500/mo. Lets say tiedown
at
> $100/mo = $1200/yr
> Insurance will depend upon pilot experience and hull value. Let's say
> $800/yr
> Annual inspection and other maintenance: When we had a 172 I think it
> averaged around $1600/yr. (including avionics).
> TOTAL FIXED COSTS = $3600/yr
>
> If the plane is flown a typical 150 hrs/yr, fixed costs as estimated above
> come in at $24/hr, so total operating cost per hour would be $34 + $24 =
> $58. But if you only fly 50 hrs/yr the hourly cost is a whopping $96.
>
> Note that this analysis does not include depreciation (or appreciation) or
> costs for periodic painting and interior upgrades, or interest charges on
a
> loan, if applicable. YMMV.
>
>
> --
> -Elliott Drucker

Pretty close. Usage related maintenance is more than $2 an hour. More
like $10, or $15 if you have an IFR panel to support. Tires, brakes,
light bulbs (landing lights, nav lights, strobes, interior lighting),
battery and gyros all give out. Then there are the occasional starter,
alternator, magnetos and nose wheel shimmy things, vacuum pump and
radio repair. This list is not exhaustive either. Maintenance is the
one recurring item that is difficult to predict.

wrote in message news:<H0u2d.8226$MS1.2892@trnddc02>...
> On 16-Sep-2004, vincent p. norris > wrote:
>
> > Can anyone who owns a Cessna 172 tell me approximately what it costs
> > per hour to operate--fuel, oil, normal maintenance, engine overhaul
> > fund?
>
>
> It depends primarily on number of hours flown per year, but given that value
> it's not too tough to calculate.
>
> DIRECT OPERATING COST:
> Figure 8 gal fuel/hr @ $3.00/gal = $24/hr
> Figure $16000 for engine overhaul, 2000 hr TBO = $8/hr
> Figure usage related maintenance = maybe $2/hr (assuming you do your own oil
> changes)
> TOTAL DIRECT OPERATNG COSTS = $34/hr
>
> FIXED COSTS:
> Tiedown/hangar, could be anywhere from free to $500/mo. Lets say tiedown at
> $100/mo = $1200/yr
> Insurance will depend upon pilot experience and hull value. Let's say
> $800/yr
> Annual inspection and other maintenance: When we had a 172 I think it
> averaged around $1600/yr. (including avionics).
> TOTAL FIXED COSTS = $3600/yr
>
> If the plane is flown a typical 150 hrs/yr, fixed costs as estimated above
> come in at $24/hr, so total operating cost per hour would be $34 + $24 =
> $58. But if you only fly 50 hrs/yr the hourly cost is a whopping $96.
>
> Note that this analysis does not include depreciation (or appreciation) or
> costs for periodic painting and interior upgrades, or interest charges on a
> loan, if applicable. YMMV.